Talk:Ezreal/@comment-3238314-20120605220359/@comment-5151680-20120607194631
"Good, but your problem is that by early levels he meant before lvl 10. And that's about 15 minutes into the game, generally. That's alot of time for your skills to be shitty." In a stereotypical game, at level 10, Q is rank 5, W is rank 1-2, E is rank 2-3, R is rank 1. Just like AD ezreal, I use my E for mobility and positioning, but when I can poke and last hit with it, I do. W hurts at low levels, but relying on it to be the main poking source is bad. "Blindness is saying it correctly. I'll tell you what ap carry can do 85 physical damage at lvl 1: none. Because they are too busy doing 90+ damage at level 1, with ap quints and masteries, and near to true damage once they get sorcerers shoes. Meanwhile you're losing damage as the levels pass. If it's range you want to praise so heavily, there's xerath, ziggs, orianna, ahri, who benefit this range as well, without being 100% countered by having a minion between them an you (though ziggs can have a problem with that at times). So if you can actually hit from that praiseworthy 1100 range, the enemy is dumb and outside his minions. If not, you hit it from a range that they can retaliate from. " 90+ damage from a lower range, on a longer cooldown, such a threat. Ezreal has the longest consant range in the game. Xerath might have a longer range with W, but while his W is active, I can just back off, and wait for its enormously long CD, or I can move into melee range and poke him harder than he will me, because he is immobilized. Ahri and orianna can't even compare for max range, despite the fact that ahri is highly mobile. Zigg's Q does have a longer max range consantly, but it is absorbable by minions, and moves slower, and has a longer CD than ezreals Q. "I'll ignore the fact that you think that 3 AD impacts the game so extremely. and focus completely on this statement: "What ezreal lacks in crowd control, he makes up for in range and flat out damage output." Does he now? Let's compare to Xerath, because he satisfies your range fetish. Ezreal's damage at lvl 10, considering that you actually hit all skills, have sheen, and using your skill build: 299 +0.2 AP physical damage and 505 + 2.35 ap. Xerath deals 780 + 3.1 AP ratio. The difference is that a)xerath doesn't get 2 of his skills blocked by minions b ) he OUTRANGES you c) he deals true damage due to ignoring 28+ 20% of what's left of your magic resist, which leaves you about... 1 magic resist, which is pretty damn close to true damage and d) he stuns you for 2 seconds. Ezreal's 299 damage from Q gets reduced by 30%, making it drop to 209, while allowing the rest of his damage to be true damage, like xerath's. That's 704 + 2.50 ap to xerath's 780 + 3.1 AP. Even if you argue for armor pen runes, you win 90 damage, making it 794+2.35, which is slightly up to par with him, but you lose 10% of that because you lack the magic penetration from runes now, and the remaining armor still reduces damage by 10-15%, so it's actually 714 + 2.13 ap, which again, is actually less. And there's the argument that ezreal has the biggest damage from the biggest range blown apart to smithereens." Don't think I would bring math into this, and not be prepared to actually do math. 3 AD does not impact his game extremely, but it does help early with his passive. Level 10 damage output for Ezreal and Xerath: Assuming Q-5, W-1, E-3, R-1, no masteries, runes or items. Also assuming that xerath is locked down in his W, and the fight lasts ~3.5 seconds, due to the fact that Xerath's ult has a delay between uses, and there is a delay in Xerath's Q and Ezreal's ult. Ezreal 2*(192.2 + .2AP)*(.682) physical + (605 + 2.35 AP)*(.769) magic = 727.4058 + 2.0764 AP true damage. Xerath (780 + 3.1AP)*(.769) magic = 614.17 + 2.44 AP true damage. With no items, Ezreal wins. Xerath requires 312 AP more AP than ezreal to do more damage. Roughly 275 more AP if you consider the armor from his passive. Assuming Ezreal has hybrid pen marks, and Xerath has magic pen marks, the true damages come out to be. Ezreal: 763.7177 + 2.1713 AP Xerath: 653.786 + 2.598 AP Xerath now requires around ~240 more AP to do more damage than ezreal, includeing the bonus armor from his passive. Now lets assume that they each bought 9 flat MR glyphs. Ezreal: 724.0902 + 1.9743 AP Xerath: 599.267 + 2.381 AP. Xerath once again requires about ~280 more AP than ezreal do do equivalent damage. Now you can argue that Xerath's stun will do whatever to stop ezreal. But ezreal can use his E to dodge the stun, and the damage from the ability that would cause the stun. Furthermore, if they were both within basic attack range, ezreal would do 4.8 less damage per attack, but would get 4.14 attacks off in 3.5s to xerath's 2.48. After rounding those numbers down, ezreal would do another 308.8 physical damage to xerath's 164 physical damage. Do you want me to do more math, because I will if I have to. "I sort of missed this little jewel here. He will outrange you and outfarm you? How? By hitting the minion in front of you with Q? with his incredible AoE farming abilities? What you can do? last hit. What the enemy AP can do? Aoe farm. YOU will be the one outfarmed. " As I stated in my last post, his passive is strong at low levels, and it, along with his Q allow him to push as he pleases. I have never had problems with Ezreal keeping the minions in the middle of the lane against a ziggs or xerath, ever. "The only thing wrong with this statement is the 'low damage' part. Q scales off of AD, not bonus AD, so while his base AD is 'low,' the total damage of Q is not at all, especially after you get a sheen." You're right! IT deals a great ammount of damage! before level 7 that is, because unlike the enemy, who will continue dealing true damage to you, you will deal less and less damage because they get scaling armor. You don't get scaling MR, so soon enough even though your base damage might be higher, it gets reduced alot more. Math is fun! \ Math IS fun. "After AP ezreal gets a sheen, there will be no point in the game where AD ezreal's Q does more damage than the AP equivalent. As stated earlier, I take the flat AD in the offensive masteries instead of flat AP in order to help his early game. AP ezreal has no problem last hitting." Completely true! the point where AD Ezreal unlike AP Ezreal negates 44% of the enemy armor does not exist. "At level 6, Ap ezreal's burst is huge. Take ignite and exhaust to guarantee the landing of R, W, E and multiple Q's. Also, burst from pointblank so you can get a few autoattacks in, and utilize the damage from E." Yes! at lvl 6, when you deal 140 + 155 + 350 damage, your burst is huge compared to, say, ahri, who deals 180 + 140 + 255 damage. It's not like your only saving grace out of that is relying for the enemy to waste his burst while under exhaust, is it? The first part proved my point, because Ezreal's burst is higher than Ahri's, although you'r numbers are off. Exhaust isn't only to lower their damage, and I don't rely on it to numb their burst, becuase they could do the same to me. I rely on it as a slow to make sure my every skillshot lands, and use the damage and armor/mr reduction as a bonus. "Disconsidering the fact that it's impossible to have more than 3 waves out at once, unless for some reasons the enemy creeps were able to push starting from the enemy mid inhibitor turret to your inhibitor (without the turret) and alistar and karma kept healing them, and even 3 waves requires the same scenario albeit without the heals, I'm actually curious how many minions you can clear before the damage falls of too much." '' 4 minion waves was an exaggeration, a figure of speach, if you will. On a side note though, it is in fact possible to have to have four waves lined up, especially past the 40 minute mark. ''"Let's assume the generous scenario that you could farm 500 ap and reached lvl 16 at the 35th minute mark. first off, let's calculate the relevant stats of each minion at that point in time(mr not taken in consideration where <20): meele minion: 665 hp, caster minion: 445, siege minion: 997 hp, 36-20 magic resist. Trueshot barrage deals 650+450, so 1100 damage. It loses 8%, so 88 damage per pass. First meele minion shot, 1100 dealt, whiped. second meele minion shot, 1012 damage dealt, whiped. 3rd meele minion shot, 924 damage dealt, whiped. first siege minion shot, 834 damage dealt, not whiped. (hah! but since the siege minion may not be present, let's continue). first caster minion, 746 damage dealt, whiped. second caster minion, 640 damage dealt, whiped. 3rd caster minion, 552 damage dealt, whiped. fourth meele minion, 464 damage dealt, not whiped. fifth meele minion, 376 damage dealt, not whiped, and damage is below the minimum treshold of 445. So you currently whiped... one wave. No siege minion. With 500 Ap. The number of minions cleared is exactly the same even if the siege minion is not present in the first wave you hit. '' Just for giggles, I'll do the math too, except I'll use my build. Assuming at the 45 minute, when I have completed my normal build, and have ~900 AP with baron and a blue pot. The starting damage is ~1450 and I have enough magic pen to nulify the minion's MR. The damage will decrease by 116 per hit and the minimum damage is 435. Melee minions will have 745 health, caster minions will have about 500 health, and siege minions will have about 1100 health. First 3 melee minions: killed. First 3 caster minions: killed. Siege minion : alive, but with 350 health left. Melee minion 4: Killed. Remaining minions alive, but caster minions will have no more than 70 health, and melee minion waves will have no more than 310 health. In my opinion, I would consider that 'wiped,' even if they aren't 'killed.' Edit: With a troll build of Rabadons+5 archangels + masteries and scaling mana runes, it is indeed possible to wipe out every caster minion with the minimum base damage of ezreals ult up until the around the 54 minute mark, but after the 2nd wave, all melee minions would live past the 5 minute mark. ''"I seriously debated on whether or not I should even post a reply, because it seems that logic and math are just ignored when regarding AP ezreal" Math IS fun. Logic is too.